If the Universe was created, then the creator must be one of two options, a pantheistic force that is described in religions like Hinduism and Buddhism, or a theistic God that is most similar to what we see from the Abrahamic Faiths.
In order to conclude which theory is right, we should be able to use the character of the different deities to determine how likely it would be for them to create the world.
The pantheistic creator stands nothing to gain from creation. There is no reason for a Pantheistic god to create the world since the world does nothing for the god. Simply put, why would you create something, only to lock it up in the attic for it to be destroyed by water and termites? There is no reason to create without a purpose.
Compared to the theistic idea of God, where He is personal and active in the world. In this theory, God has a reason to create the world, He wanted to give the creation that He loves a place to worship Him and to live their lives.
We can know that pantheistic gods do not care about worship because the religions that worship them place a far heavier focus on the concept of self within the follower than it does on the nature of the god.
In conclusion, there is no reason for a pantheistic god to create anything, while there is a reason for a theistic God to create. Therefore, if we acknowledge that the universe was created then we must also acknowledge that it was, most probably created by a personal, theistic God.
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Dear Carl, thank you for another interesting and thought provoking post.
I have some questions.
1. In pantheism is it god or gods? You seem to switch between the two and this is confusing.
2. You say that we can use the character of the different deities to determine if they would create us and our universe. What criteria did you use to make this judgment and how was it applied to support your statement?
3. Did you know that although the word deity is translated from the original Sanskrit deva (m) or devi (f) but that the different Buddha forms or aspects are actually visual representations of our very own divine attributes? They do not refer to gods or other beings. That’s why namaste is said and means “the heavenly or “divine” in me sees the heavenly or divine in you.” You can see the origin of the word sitting right in front of us now in plane sight. Devi-Devine
4. Your statement “The pantheistic creator stands nothing to gain from creation. There is no reason for a Pantheistic god to create the world since the world does nothing for the god. Simply put, why would you create something, only to lock it up in the attic for it to be destroyed by water and termites?” Is our universe being destroyed by water and termites or is it as modern science suggests in a constant state of change and growth? Yes as some stars go supernova in other places planets and new stars are being formed. Here in earth we have seen certain species wiped out and new ones born or discovered. Why is this a bad thing?
Thank you and Namaste,
1) It god, that is my bad. I will make the necessary edits.
2) Motive, means, and opportunity. These are the three things that are necessary to prove someone is guilty of something. Means and opportunity are the same between the two possibilities, so I wanted to show that there is a motivation for one of them, and no motivation for the other.
3) I did not know that. Thank you for sharing but I do not understand how this piece of info pertains to the article.
4) The Law of Entropy states that the universe is running out of useable energy. I used the metaphor of water and termites to illustrate this. I do not say that it is a bad thing, I just say that it is a thing.
-Thank you and God bless
Dear Carl thank you for this enlightening chat, I hope you had a good sleep and a wonderful Sunday and that all is well with you and those you love.
To say that there is no evidence of life on other planets is easy, but mathematically improbable. The shear number of earth like planets we have counted in a limited space in just our one in billions of galaxies demands that we take our heads out from the sand and accept that we are not alone. Maybe you could rationalize this by saying that we are not the only experiment that you god is conducting. To say that he is only for us stinks from hubris, and that’s just not such an attractive quality.
Mens-ria and Actus reus are really not terms that would support your argument that a pantheistic god would not create life and the universe. What does guilt have to do with anything?
Buddhist teachings go beyond good and bad tall and short and any other imagined extreme. They are non dual, this means no god no devil. This is not something one can learn or explain on a blog, one must experience it.
The mention of deities in your blog “use the character of the different deities to determine” deities here in the Buddhist sense is used incorrectly as the deities are not beings like gods. Maybe they are like gods in Hinduism, but Buddhism and Hinduism are not the same thing, or are traditional Christians list like Jehovah’s Witnesses? This is why I explained you the Sanskrit terms of Devi/deva.
Further more in Buddhism unlike in Hinduism’s Shiva, there is no creation story as such. Please be accurate here and don’t lump us all in the same heap.
Entropy is simply a quantitative measure of what the second law of thermodynamics describes: the spreading of energy until it is evenly spread. https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
Entropy is not so simple as you would have us believe, please clarify exactly what you mean.
Pantheism is the belief that God and the universe are equivalent (the same thing). A pantheist believes that everything that exists is a part of God or that God is a part of everything that exists. The name pantheism comes from the Greek words theism (belief in God) and pan (all). What do you mean by a pantheistic force? Are you separate from god?
There is no evidence for life on other planets, and all of the math shows the same. I would redirect you to the article that I published detailing the evidence that life can only come from life. The article is somewhat satirical, but the points detailed there, at least in my opinion are irrefutable.
I would have someone believe that while entropy is as you say, one of the conclusions that someone can draw from that is that the energy within the universe will eventually be spread so thin that it is unusable. Since the universe is constantly expanding, the area that the total amount of energy in the universe is also expanding, and therefore we will eventually be unable to harness the energy of the universe. That was extremely confusing for me to write about let alone for someone to read, think of it like this,
A bathtub has a set amount of water in it. At normal size, the bathtub is useful for containing the water in a way that we can use it (to bathe). Now if the bathtub were to constantly expand laterally, eventually the water would be so shallow that we could no longer use it to bathe. The universe and the energy that is contained therewithin would act in the same way.
When I said “different deities” I was referring to the Christian God and whatever the highest power is in Buddhism and/or Hinduism. I was not referring to the individual deities that you believe can be found in every one of us, rather to the original diety.
Buddhism may not have a creation story, but it most certainly has schools of thought on how the world came into being, as I am sure you are aware. The only school of thought that holds any weight is the one that says that a deity created the earth.
I am having a great deal of trouble comprehending the idea of something being “non-dual” as you say. If it is only something that I can experience then I will go about my life completely unchanged and get back to you if I have that experience. But in my understanding of the world, it is very clear that there is a dualistic nature to a great many things. For instance, good and evil, tall and short, so on and so forth. Hitler was evil, Mother Teresa was good. Charity is good, murder is bad, I am tall, my friend Abby is short. These are objective truths.
When I mentioned ‘pantheistic force’ I was referring to the ultimate deity, the one that created the universe.
And yes I am separated from God. I do not want to be, but because of my sinful nature and the evil that I do on a daily basis, I am separated from the Ultimate Good. That does not mean that I can not pray to Him, or that He does not know me, simply that we are not the same entity.
I hope that this clears some things up, thank you for the discussion, it is always fun to challenge my beliefs with well-learned people like yourself.
We will likely not agree on life in other worlds until the aliens actually visit us 😉 and then we will be to scared to talk.
The universe is not just expanding laterally but in all dimensions simultaneously. Length width depth time and all other known or theoretical dimensions and values possible. Energy is everywhere in us and around us I see no reason that it cannot and expand and grow as well. Don’t forget we know next to nothing about dark matter and the source of energy that it could be. Read some of what Nikola Tesla had to say about energy.
All other things aside, as we could go back and forth forever, I find it sad to know that you feel you are separated from god. This brings us to what is perhaps the fundamental difference between Buddhism and Christianity. Now I believe that you and are similar in how we write and view the world as we like to bring things and ideas together not to separate and differentiate everything so I hope you can see my point here. Buddhism starts off from a position of non separation, non dual, or co emergent truth. Non separation means that there is no difference between you and I, what I do to you is done to me ( have you heard this somewhere?), subject, object, and action are one. Non dual means that it’s not left or right but in the middle and or not right or wrong but neutral. All labels that separate that which we perceive are judgements we impute on everything we come in contact with, labels but not reality. Co -emergence means that all things arise together totally dependent on each other. For example the chicken and the egg are together not separated (no need to ask which came first), not one and the other, but the same. This is why one meditates to experience things as they really are to see how interconnected, dependent, and united we are. This is not easy but it can be done. You are not separated from god you are one, we are one (you and I) this false understanding that we are separated is the cause of all our wars and differences as well as all the small interpersonal disagreements we have. Can you see how it is necessary to remove this artificial barrier between us now? This false understanding is caused by our basic ignorance and the first mistaken separation between your spiritual self and your ego. Your spiritual self would be that part of you that sees through your eyes and hears through your ears.
Instead of meditating you invite god into your heart, you take communion, and you pray but you are still separate from your true divine nature who you name god. How sad 😦 In Buddhism we are not just one but we take it a step further to say that we were never separated.
Buddha puts forth that creation is continuous as is death, your body is a great example of this as cells die now ones are formed this is mirrored on a large scale as well in the universe. What is this Buddhist creation story you speak of? Is it the Agganna Sutta?
Ask yourself “how can I become one with god?” The answer is you cannot become what you already are. It’s so simple.
In meditation we are being still knowing god, have you heard this before? 1st Corinthians 1:10 is a great verse this is what I am getting at ” I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.” Or in John 16:23 “I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved themeven as you have loved me.”
There are some non dual teachings in the Bible but they are hidden in language and culture that make it harder to find today. I know if you look you will find even more exact if non dual teachings in the Bible.